E85 and injectors

[TerryLiv [CoE]]

Originally Posted by drcustom

It does sound like we're dealing with something in the fuel itself, but I am curious what would happen if you and Terry swapped stations (IIRC you are pretty far away from each other though).

Doing this really would rule out setup as a concern, or keep the door open for factors outside of (or in addition to) something in the fuel.

Matthew,

I would be happy to pick up 5 gallons from your guy if you give me an address. Unless something changes, I will be driving through Colorado Springs Friday afternoon on my way to a 14er. So far I have been able to tell within 5 gallons that the idle starts to go to pot.

Terry

[matthewdesigns]

Terry,

I've purchased the bulk of my e85 from the Western Gas at the southwest corner of Uintah and 19th Street. It's literally about 1 minute west of I-25 on Uintah St. Exit I-25 onto Uintah heading west, go through 1 light immediately at Walnut St, then another at Mesa Rd in about 1/3 mile, then the next light is 19th St in about another 2/3 mile. Do you know at what time you'll be through there?

When I first pulled my injectors for inspection a couple of months ago, that's the station I had been using for the previous 6 months.

[rodent]

Originally Posted by thiazole

I've been contacted by a liaison to an ethanol plant executive and have been asked to help their chemists figure out what this stuff is. They have several hypotheses and I'm fairly certain that one of their hypotheses is correct (it helps to have people who actually know what the E85 is exposed to in the process from fermentation to when it is pumped into the tank). They've identified some potential contaminants that could be getting into the E85 and want me to help them identify which contaminant(s) we are seeing. In any event, they've asked me to keep it quiet while we figure this out and fix the problem without drawing a lot of attention to it.

I'm glad they realized they have an issue and want to figure this out with you. Factory Flex Fuel vehicles must be having the same issues.

[TerryLiv [CoE]]

Looking for experiences with cold starting from people having black goo problems with their cars and E-85.

My experience with telling when I have fouled injectors from the goo is that during cold early morning starts, it goes from 2-3 seconds of cranking before starting to 5 than 10 and finally when really fouled to 15 seconds before starting.

I recently had to pull my fuel rail because of an air leak at one injector. At the time I was running straight E-85 for a short period of time. It was taking about 8 seconds to start from cold (in the morning) starts. There was no black goo!

Do others notice this same symptom? If not, what symptom do you see as a result of the black goo?

Terry

[Darkmood]

Back when my car was running, I'd have to crank it over for about 5-8 seconds, stop, try again and it would start right up. I had a little bit of the black goo, nothing major though.

[steve]

Overkill You live pretty close to me. What gas station do you gas up at Kum and Go. I want to run e85 but this problem is making me not want to. Are you still getting the black buildup?

[Overkill]

I'm not running E-85 on any vehicles anymore, but my friend fills up at the Highway 52 Kum and Go and has no problem, but his vehicle is a Porsche 944.

The station right off Ken Pratt in Longmont is where I use to fill up on e85 and I had the black goo issue.

[TerryLiv [CoE]]

I finally gave up on trying to fix the black goo issue by trying additives or different fueling locations and am now running about 65% E85 and the remainder gasoline. It seems to work pretty well and can run 30 PSI boost with no knock.

The car has been down for a couple of months now while doing repairs and mods. I will know more this spring.

Terry

[steve]

Originally Posted by Overkill

I'm not running E-85 on any vehicles anymore, but my friend fills up at the Highway 52 Kum and Go and has no problem, but his vehicle is a Porsche 944.

The station right off Ken Pratt in Longmont is where I use to fill up on e85 and I had the black goo issue.

Well I think when it getting warmer im going to give e85 a try and gas up at that station. Hopefully I don't run into the black goo problem.

[scooby]

I've been filling at the Western on Briargate and Union in C/S, just swapped injectors and my old ones were all gooey.

[steve]

Do you guys have the egr still on and could that cause this?

[matthewdesigns]

I've run mine both ways and there's no difference on my car.

[TerryLiv [CoE]]

Originally Posted by steve

Do you guys have the egr still on and could that cause this?

Among other changes I am now installing a new manifold which will block mine, so will know after it gets back on the road.

Terry

[scooby]

Egrless here.

[Overkill]

EGR was blocked on mine so no dice as I still had the problem.

[steve]

Dang that sucks! I talked to some evo and srt4 owners that run 100% E85 and they dont have any problems.

[Cloud]

I wonder if it has anything to do with how the pcv system is routed? Who has stock pcv and who has vented to atmosphere and whatnot and maybe that has an effect?

[Mirage]

Earlier in this thread it was stated that the goo was a byproduct that was found in the gasoline that was mixed with the ethanol.

I believe that the consensus was that with richer mixes of gasoline, the goo stayed dissolved and simply passed through the engine being burned in the combustion process.

With a richer mix of ethanol, the goo is *barely* staying dissolved with the amount of gasoline and was being left as deposits on the injector tips when it hit open air. Whether the deposits were being left upon startup, shutdown or while running was still left to be determined if I remember right.

Marcus

[TerryLiv [CoE]]

Originally Posted by Mirage

I believe that the consensus was that with richer mixes of gasoline, the goo stayed dissolved and simply passed through the engine being burned in the combustion process.

With a richer mix of ethanol, the goo is *barely* staying dissolved with the amount of gasoline and was being left as deposits on the injector tips when it hit open air. Whether the deposits were being left upon startup, shutdown or while running was still left to be determined if I remember right.

Marcus

From my experimenting I believe that "about" 2/3 E85 and 1/3 gas is the break even point. Of course it varies with 70 vs 85 ethylene ratio.

Terry

[JSMCPN]

Originally Posted by TerryLiv

From my experimenting I believe that "about" 2/3 E85 and 1/3 gas is the break even point. Of course it varies with 70 vs 85 ethylene ratio.

Terry

We really need an affordable, quality Fuel Composition Sensor. The GM flex-fuel sensor is absurdly expensive and fails about every 40k miles.

[Mirage]

Bigger question:

How many DSM's on the road today manage to get 40k miles in less than 4 years?

Marcus

[drcustom]

Originally Posted by JSMCPN

The GM flex-fuel sensor is absurdly expensive.

Wasn't it around $100?

[HisandHerTurbo]

OMG! I was all excited to go E-85, now I see this? Grrrrrrrr
updates?

TY
JOE

[racebreakfixrepeat1]

I have ran 100% e-85 even on pt780's and never had an tuning issues. I did have the goo issue but only after a few thousand miles. Now I run 100% on fic1350's with no goo issues. My goo problems were coming from the chemical decomp of what few rubber fuel linei had left.

[prophecymiller]

Originally Posted by racebreakfixrepeat1

My goo problems were coming from the chemical decomp of what few rubber fuel linei had left.

I don't know if you read the thread(kinda long), but Thiazole determined the goo is in the E85 you buy and not some kind of fuel system breakdown as far as he could tell. Speaking of which WHERE ARE YOU THIAZOLE??? It's been a while since I have seen him post...

Also, the goo will go back into solution if you run regular pump gas through every few months to clean the injectors, so I don't see the goo as being too big of a problem as long as you make sure to run some pure pump gas periodically.