E85 and injectors

[JackM]

This is what happens when you cram food in your injectors! Here are some pics of my brothers again. He just cleaned them a couple of weeks ago and he pulled them out the other day to see this:

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l2...0/DSC02928.jpg

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l2...0/DSC02929.jpg

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l2...0/DSC02930.jpg

We are still unable to figure this out. We feel that we have tried a lot with no results. The only thing that may be promising is my car was starting to act up like my brothers when his gets like this. I ran fuel injector cleaner in my car when this started to happen and it ran a little better and now starts on all 4 cyliders when cold, which means they are clearing out. I haven't had the chance to pull them yet to see how clean they really are, but it seems to be doing something.

Some people seem to have this issue and others don't. This is starting to get annoying having to pull the injectors every few weeks. Still worth it though

Anybody have any ideas? We believe that the E85 is having some kind of reaction with something else and leaving this crap on the tips. The fuel systems are filtered very well and spotless. The stuff is being created on the injector tip and valves only. The valves had an insane amount on them too!

Jack

[mobythevan]

Jack, are both cars running E85 full time? I have been daily driving with E85 full time for about 3 months now. I will pull the injectors this weekend if I can remember and see what they look like. I have a little over 5k miles so far. Wes told me you were encoutering this build up on the injectors. If anyones car will do it, his will. Everything bad happens to his car

[thiazole]

Almost looks like rubber fuel line is dissolving somewhat and depositing there. I've never seen this on my car, and I've pulled my injectors quite a few times.

[Cloud]

I would wager that is some form of alcohol incompatible rubber. I recently pulled mine and they had a light amount of that stuff in the tip but nowhere near that much. This is after about a year too, not just weeks so I assume either I have a different type of alcohol resistant rubber, my fuel filter is catching stuff yours isn't, or it's occuring after the filter but before the injector for you. Incidentally all my fuel lines are stock and so is the rubber except for the return hose from the regulator.

I cleaned them by soaking them in mineral spirits. Whatever it is seems perfectly soluble in mineral spirits because I didn't have to 'clean' them at all they just sat for a couple hours and came out spotless and shiny when the crap wouldn't come off well at all by hand.

[Toybreaker]

You guys run braided stainless from the tank forward, right?

I couldn't find much info from the hose guys on e-85 compatability, but I wonder if that's the inner lining breaking down?

It could also be from the return side hoses, or any rubber hoses left in the system.

It might also be time to take a quick peek inside the tank and see what's lurking in there.

[v413nc3]

Most AN lines are alcohol compatible. I'm with John on the tank theory. I don't get anything on the 2G because I run an alcohol compatible cell, not sure if that would be it or not. I know that the 1G tank pumped piles of gunk out for Marcus though. We also ran E85 in the white 2G for about a year. The injectors came out clean. But yet again 2G with a synthetic tank (stock).

[thiazole]

I suppose if could be gunk from the tank that dissolves, passes the filter, but crashes out during atomization and builds up on the end of the injector. I've actually seen a similar phenomenon in the lab, now that I think about it, where stalactites of compound formed on the tip of a purification column where the solvent exits the column.

[Toybreaker]

but crashes out during atomization and builds up on the end of the injector.

I was having a hard time with the wording, but I was thinking the same thing.

I can see how a foreign substance, disolved in the fuel could preciptitate out and form deposits where the pressure changes at the injector tip.

[BlueVelocity]

That's a really weird one. What does it feel like Jack, rubber, or grease, is it soft, etc?

I've heard of a few guys having the rubber inside the walbro's breaking down, are you using a wally pump?

[Cloud]

If it was anything like mine it feels a lot like non-hardening rtv, tacky, sticky as hell, and impossible to mechanically clean off completely but easy as pie to dissolve away. Very similar to a broken down rubber gasket that was in my pile of honda's cooling system. The rubber itself was hard and dry but the crap that came off on my hands was sticky and impossible to remove.

[v413nc3]

A great deal of in-tank style pumps are not alcohol compatible. The lower amount we use in our day to day gasoline still creates issues with them but running nearly pure ethyl alcohol through them daily will accelerate the breakdown. The whinebro should definately *not* be used with alcohol, other than it's a cruddy pump, they'll do what you're talking about Erron.

[coloRODan_SRTsi]

wow thats a lil scary and misterious....i was thinking bout converting my 1g to 100% E85 once i got injectors cuz my neon loves it

[JackM]

We have had this happen in vehicles running all stock factory lines and filter (my car for awhile) and same thing. So AN lines are not the cause as they were not in my car.

The tanks and filters are perfectly clean. There is absolutely nothing that can be seen with the naked eye going through there.

Agreed on the previous post as to how it feels. It's like tar. The solvent tank takes it out quick.

The only thing we all share right now is the Walbro pumps. My brother has dual pumps in his and his seems to be worse than ay of ours. Mine just has a single pump, but I will be removing it and installing my Magnafuel from my 2G this weekend. Outlaw DSM has an A1000 and even though he has some build up too, it is almost nonexistent. My brother thinks the E85 is having a reaction with the PCV system in the car. Those that don't have it don't seem to have as much of an issue with the build up. He is going to clean everything out and remove the PCV from the intake and try again. I'm going to run my Magnafuel, so I guess in time we will see if that makes any difference...

Thanks,

Jack

[v413nc3]

When I pull the engine this weekend to install the oil tank I'll take pictures of my fuel rail on the inside and the injectors for you Jack. I'm using a cell with twin A1000's. We'll see if you can notice any differences from the pics. Maybe mine are lightly covered and I'm just missing it.

[mobythevan]

Well, it will be interesting if it correlates to the walbros. Me and Wes are both running them. I also use them in my rx7 with E85.

[Cloud]

I am also on a walbro, the inside of my fuel rail and lines are immaculate. I have my pcv vented to atmosphere.

[thiazole]

I ran E85 with a Walbro for a year and never saw anything unusual on my injectors.

[BlueVelocity]

I'm on the A1000, stainless lines, and PCV vented to atmosphere as well. I have zero of that happening though. What injectors are those anyway? For a minute there I thought it was a plastic tip that had melted.

[JackM]

The injectors are 1150 in the pic I believe. They are just his DD car injectors. They look brand new again after flushing them in solvent. This has happened on 2 of his cars than run E85.

I found that in his race car last year he had a complete AN -10 fuel system with a Magnafuel pump and same issue there too. The return was -6 or 8 I think but none was factory. There was absolutely nothing in that fuel system from the factory except for the tank and modified -10 OEM fuel rail. He had no Walbro and same issue. So I don't believe from what we have found that it's the tank, fuel pump, or lines. Has to be something going on in the head or maybe, like mentioned above, a 'gunk from the tank that dissolves, passes the filter, but crashes out during atomization and builds up on the end of the injector' problem, because no paper or screen mesh filters catch anything in any of our cars. Everything looks spotless.

Jack

[prophecymiller]

I also had very clean injectors on my last 2g with a Walbro and stock fuel lines after a month or two on straight e85. PCV routing was stock.

[JSMCPN]

That buildup sure is weird. Nevertheless, I'll be trying E85 this spring on my 2g, so I'll post my findings after running it for a few weeks. I've been running 40% E85 in my Toyota for several tanks now, maybe I should pull it's injectors.

My fuel system consists of: Supra (Denso) pump, stainless braided feed line, Earl's fuel filter (not sure if it's steel or bronze mesh, or if it's 35 or 85 micron), stock 1g fuel rail, FIC 1350 BlueMax injectors, old Spoolinup AFPR, and stock return lines. PCV valve connected, valve cover side vent is connected to the intake and has an inline oil catch. No EGR.

I am definitely not a chemist, can ethanol be converted back into sugar? Could the black gunk be E85 cotton candy?

Also, anyone having this problem should make sure to note what brand the fuel is and where it was purchased.

[v413nc3]

Interesting find...

Earlier fuel injectors of the pintle design could form deposits that changed the pattern of the injected fuel. This problem developed from injectors seeping fuel when the vehicle was not running. This formed carbon deposits on the pintle and caused even more leakage. This could happen with any gasoline. Because of this problem, injectors in most vehicles have been re-designed around the popet style and all gasoline is required to carry a detergent component to alleviate the deposit problem.

[thiazole]

Originally Posted by JSMCPN

I am definitely not a chemist, can ethanol be converted back into sugar? Could the black gunk be E85 cotton candy?

No, sugar is a very complex molecule compared to ethanol. Entropy allows us to go from complex to less complex easily, but it doesn't let us go back without a huge price. Even if I ignored all the chiral centers in sugar, I would find it very challenging to convert ethanol back to sugar in the lab.

[mpdeneen]

Originally Posted by thiazole

No, sugar is a very complex molecule compared to ethanol. Entropy allows us to go from complex to less complex easily, but it doesn't let us go back without a huge price. Even if I ignored all the chiral centers in sugar, I would find it very challenging to convert ethanol back to sugar in the lab.

I love your posts. They make the rest of us look like dogs trying to operate doorknobs...

[Cloud]

I'm not sure how much freedom and facilities you have at work thiazole but it would be interesting if you could take a sample of fresh e85 from the pump and see if there was anything in it that would explain the formation of this presumed precipitate on the injector, then maybe take a sample from someone who has the issue pretty badly like Jack and compare it to see if there is anything striking that you can find that may or may not give insight to the phenomenon.

If not, do you know of any independent labs that might do something like this similar to the blackstone oil testing for relatively cheap?

[thiazole]

Assuming it is organic (which if it is a sludge, it is probably organic), then I can take a sample of the sludge along with a sample of E85 and get proton NMRs of each and tell you if it is coming from the E85. If it is inorganic, I don't have the ability to analyze it, but again, inorganic compounds (think metals or salts) tend to be hard solids. I can take samples from rubber hoses, etc and try to match them as well.

[Cloud]

Excellent, strikingly it seems our small community has some pretty useful resources. This is why I like prefer this forum to just about any in the country.

So let's get some people on board and do some analysis!

[thiazole]

Originally Posted by mpdeneen

I love your posts. They make the rest of us look like dogs trying to operate doorknobs...

Well, this is just what I do for a living - in a nutshell, I take small molecules and piece them together in an orderly way to make large molecules in an attempt to make new pharmaceuticals. I'm sure if you started talking about circuit board design that it would sound like Greek to me.

[Overkill]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPBOBWRXX0M

[matthewdesigns]

I have not pulled any of my injectors to look, but I have not experienced any symptoms other than the usual difficult cold start, either. Sometimes the car fires up on fewer than 4 cylinders (don't know how many), but upon immediately shutting down and restarting, it comes back on all 4, and runs normally thereafter. I am using FIC 950's, a Wally 255HP, stock filter, and all stock fuel lines except for the short one from the rail to my afpr. I have about 6 months of driving with this setup.

Frankly I'm nervous about disassembling anything on the car which is functioning properly right now, lol, but will in the interest of science if we all ought to do it.

Originally Posted by mpdeneen

I love your posts. They make the rest of us look like dogs trying to operate doorknobs...

I almost spewed coffee out my nose reading that...I needed a good laugh!

Originally Posted by thiazole

Assuming it is organic (which if it is a sludge, it is probably organic), then I can take a sample of the sludge along with a sample of E85 and get proton NMRs of each and tell you if it is coming from the E85. If it is inorganic, I don't have the ability to analyze it, but again, inorganic compounds (think metals or salts) tend to be hard solids. I can take samples from rubber hoses, etc and try to match them as well.

Fantastic! Thank you for volunteering to try to figure this out. Maybe I'm just being nerdy, but I think it's really cool that we have a chemist on board who could even offer to do this lol.

[JackM]

I might be going to Denver this weekend or early next week. If I do, I'll bring a nice injector for you to analyze if you wish Let me know.

Jack

[thiazole]

Sure, let me know when you'll be up. I have a 3 day weekend with President's day, so if it is Saturday through Monday, I will likely be able to meet up. I'll bring a vial to collect the material. If anyone is interested in how I plan to analyze these samples, this is what I'll be doing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NMR_spectroscopy

[matthewdesigns]

Dayum, that's pretty impressive. And they let you just put random stuff in it? That's awesome. I have an anvil at work...


New site t-shirt:

CODSM:
We tune with Nuclear Magnetic Resonance Spectroscopy...
What do you use?

[thiazole]

Well, our machines aren't quite as impressive as the the 900MHz monster pictured in Wikipedia. That beast is probably a $10 million machine. Our machines don't have built in ladders or a spiral staircase to get to the top either - we have a small step stool. Really, the sample remains separate from the machine (it is in a glass vial) and it only takes about 10 minutes to analyze, so it isn't a big deal.

These machines use superconductors to create mega magnetic fields. The greater the magnetic field, the better they work. If you walk by our machines with a analogue watch, the hands of the watch will freeze up and will look like they are tweaked. It will also kill pacemakers. That machine in Wikipedia would probably rip a pacemaker out of your chest (well, probably not quite). Seriously, though, when they get that big you have to remove all metal from your body before you get near it or it could rip it clean off.

[thiazole]

This is what our machines look like. They look like toys compared to that 900MHz machine. http://smct.tnw.utwente.nl/nmr_ms/nmr/400/

[thiazole]

So I got a proton NMR of the E85 that I'm using, and man, it looks like it is almost all ethanol. It looks like E90+ to me (which is bizarre considering that this is supposed to be E70 right now). There is gasoline in it which is the next biggest part, then maybe 1-2% water, and a few unknown trace compounds. It will be the trace compounds that I will look for in the sludge.

[XakEp]

Originally Posted by matthewdesigns

Dayum, that's pretty impressive. And they let you just put random stuff in it? That's awesome. I have an anvil at work...


New site t-shirt:

CODSM:
We tune with Nuclear Magnetic Resonance Spectroscopy...
What do you use?

I'm going to have to second this. Motion is carried!

[coloRODan_SRTsi]

we do have almost 20 year old cars so the lines r weak now to hold e85 for too long

[Overkill]

Some more reading has indicated that its something inside the injectors deteriorating and not something pre-injector or a bi-product of E85.

Maybe the pintle spacer material or seal material from inside the injector.

[matthewdesigns]

Originally Posted by thiazole

So I got a proton NMR of the E85 that I'm using, and man, it looks like it is almost all ethanol. It looks like E90+ to me (which is bizarre considering that this is supposed to be E70 right now). There is gasoline in it which is the next biggest part, then maybe 1-2% water, and a few unknown trace compounds. It will be the trace compounds that I will look for in the sludge.

What brand of gas station did this sample come from, Western? Farmcrest?

[thiazole]

I can't remember - I want to say Texaco.

[thiazole]

Here is the NMR of E85. Sorry it isn't that easy to see. The detail is very fine and some of it didn't get picked up. I guess I need to make a higher resolution image for you guys to really see what is going on. Anyway, the A, B, and C are the hydrogen atoms of ethanol. The gasoline peak is just to the right of peak C (I have it circled and labeled, but you probably can't see it). The unknowns are also circled, but the detail is too small to see in this image.

[matthewdesigns]

Soooo, forgive my ignorance. A couple of questions about the chart, and how the machine works.

How do you arrive at a percentage-based breakout of all the values shown? IE, as you pointed out, gasoline is a tiny peak as compared to "C", so do you add all the peak values together to find "100%", then divide it out?

How does the machine distinguish the hydrogen in ethanol from that of the gasoline? Do you define what you are looking for prior to analysis, so other compounds are displayed as such, instead of as molecular "parts".

[thiazole]

The machine integrates the peaks so that you get a relative quantity measurement between them. The calculation is a little tricky because a molecule of ethanol is much lighter than a molecule of gasoline (octane) but it also has fewer hydrogens. Ethanol has a molecular weight of about 46 and has 6 hydrogens and octane has a molecular weight of about 114 and has 18 hydrogens. If I ignore everything else, the machine is showing that the 6 hydrogens of ethanol account for about 93.5% of the area and the 18 hydrogens of gasoline account for 6.5% of the area. So from there is is easy to calculate the mole %. First of all, since there are 3X as many protons in gasoline, the 6.5 area % is 3X its mole %, so that would be only 2.17 mole %. But, since gasoline weighs 2.48X more than ethanol, that pushes it up to 5.4 weight %, or about E95.

There is an obvious problem with that, though, and that is that I don't know what all the mystery peaks are. They aren't calling it E85 because it is 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline necessarily. Perhaps it is 85% ethanol, 5% gasoline, and a 10% mixture of other crap. Or, some of the gasoline protons could be buried underneath ethanol peak C and I'm counting them as ethanol when they are really gasoline. Anyway, here is a higher resolution picture of the NMR:

[thiazole]

Originally Posted by matthewdesigns

How does the machine distinguish the hydrogen in ethanol from that of the gasoline? Do you define what you are looking for prior to analysis, so other compounds are displayed as such, instead of as molecular "parts".

The machine doesn't do any of that. It just gives raw data. There are rules for determining where peaks will show up based on the hydrogens and to be able to interpret an NMR, you just have to know those rules (something I learned in school). Below is a basic set of rules for where different hydrogens show up, but in the end, it is much more complicated than that and there is a lot more than I want to get into (here is an nice NMR tutorial, though: http://www.cem.msu.edu/~reusch/Virtu.../nmr1.htm#nmr1 ).

[thiazole]

Originally Posted by thiazole

First of all, since there are 3X as many protons in gasoline,

I should point out, to organic chemists, a proton is the same as a hydrogen atom (which is just a proton and an electron). I tried not to use the term "proton" for a hydrogen, but old habits die hard. We never talk about nuclear chemistry, so it doesn't confuse us to use that term, but I can see it being very confusing to anyone else.

[thiazole]

I think I see xylene in the mixture. That would be consistent with the unknown that shows up at about 7.4 and at 2.4.

[prophecymiller]

Dang that's cool!

[matthewdesigns]

Originally Posted by thiazole

(here is an nice NMR tutorial, though: http://www.cem.msu.edu/~reusch/Virtu.../nmr1.htm#nmr1 ).

Thanks for the link!

[g34rh34d]

Originally Posted by mpdeneen

I love your posts. They make the rest of us look like dogs trying to operate doorknobs...

I was reading this thread and I have to admit, this one made me laugh out loud.. lol.. what a visual..

Unfortunately I don't have much to add to this thread other than what has been suggested so far. My immediate impression was that the liners of the hoses were deteriorating. Then my next thought was possibly if there is a coating on the inside of our tanks (I can't remember if they are plastic.. or metal with possibly some sort of anti corrosion coating?) that might be breaking down from the alcohol, passing through the filters and by virtue of the heat in the engine causing the residue to solidify at the tips of the injectors..


{ Edit: Ok, finished reading the rest of the thread, and realized I'll just stick to the doorknobs.. lol}


My .02

[JSMCPN]

I wonder if this happens in Flex-Fuel vehicles also. I would think that if the goo was something in the Ethanol itself, that F-F vehicles would also be affected. That leans towards incompatible fuel delivery components in DSMs. The very odd part about this, is that the tank, pump, filters, rail, and regulator in most cars seem to be totally goo-free and working fine.

[thiazole]

I personally highly doubt it comes from the fuel. I'd still like a sample, though, so I can try to figure out what it is.

[JackM]

I should be up there this Friday. I'll PM once I get more info...

Jack

[D Walker]

Originally Posted by Toybreaker

You guys run braided stainless from the tank forward, right?

I couldn't find much info from the hose guys on e-85 compatability, but I wonder if that's the inner lining breaking down?

It could also be from the return side hoses, or any rubber hoses left in the system.

It might also be time to take a quick peek inside the tank and see what's lurking in there.

Actually, I think you have something here. Not long ago (well, a few years) I saw an AN line inside a fuel cell in an advaned state of degredation. It had in fact partially dissolved and pieces large enough to clog a -8 line had enventually broken loose.

Originally Posted by v413nc3

Most AN lines are alcohol compatible. I'm with John on the tank theory. I don't get anything on the 2G because I run an alcohol compatible cell, not sure if that would be it or not. I know that the 1G tank pumped piles of gunk out for Marcus though. We also ran E85 in the white 2G for about a year. The injectors came out clean. But yet again 2G with a synthetic tank (stock).

Not all AN lines are for use with Ethanol, especially some of the cheap crap that goes for "braided hose" these days. Stick with the good guys, Aeroquip/Goodridge/XRP/. On page 7 of this link http://hydraulics.eaton.com/products...es_343-380.pdf you will find a fluid compatability chart showing what is and is not for use with E85. The best thing to do is to always do your research and see if the hose you are buying or want to use has been approved for use with the fuel you want to use.

[thiazole]

Originally Posted by JackM

I should be up there this Friday. I'll PM once I get more info...

Jack

Are you still coming up? Let me know - I can plan a trip out there after work if you will be around that time.

[JSMCPN]

I asked RC Engineering about the black goo:

"We have not conducted any testing regarding the long term effects of using E85. Our injectors are NOT suitable with E85 on daily driven vehicles. Race applications involve draining the E85 and pickling the fuel system with gasoline at the end of each day. The injectors also need to get serviced every 2-3 months."

I asked FIC the same thing about their BlueMax injectors:

"The BlueMAX 1350’s ARE indeed E85 compatible.
Regarding the buildup issue, I have seen injectors with this buildup myself, but I do not have an explanation for it.
Since we do not work on or tune cars here, we rely on feedback from our customers about actual running issues etc. I am very interested in what is causing this and would appreciate any information you find on this. If there are some forum threads that you have found, please forward these to me so that I can take part in these discussions."

[Mirage]

So... The injector companies are near worthless on the buildup. Not too surprised I guess.

Marcus

[D Walker]

Why would they care? the "buildup" isnt being caused by thier components so there is nothing they can do about it. However, fuel line manufacturers etc. would be interested I think, since if their product is used on flex fuel and turns to mush causing engine damage or worse, a fire, they will have hell to pay. I would guess thats why fuel line is generically rated for use with Alcohol above a certian percentage (oddly coinciding with the percentage of alcohol being used in pump gas) or not. Almost all "standard" fuel system components are NOT rated for use with E85 or other alcohol fuels, despite the fact "pump gas" contains a percentage of alcohol.

[v413nc3]

Originally Posted by D Walker

Actually, I think you have something here. Not long ago (well, a few years) I saw an AN line inside a fuel cell in an advaned state of degredation. It had in fact partially dissolved and pieces large enough to clog a -8 line had enventually broken loose.
Not all AN lines are for use with Ethanol, especially some of the cheap crap that goes for "braided hose" these days. Stick with the good guys, Aeroquip/Goodridge/XRP/. On page 7 of this link http://hydraulics.eaton.com/products...es_343-380.pdf you will find a fluid compatability chart showing what is and is not for use with E85. The best thing to do is to always do your research and see if the hose you are buying or want to use has been approved for use with the fuel you want to use.

That's why I did not say "all" AN lines are. I still did not see it on my injectors in the daily driven E85 car (2G) which runs RC550's. Nor have I seen any sign of it in the race car and we've run a good deal of ethanol through it for tuning and testing (Ford 1600's). Of course all the Ethanol I've run came as E95 (5% meth) and was pre-mixed with specific petrol. I'm not a big fan of "what gas did I get today". So I don't know if there is something that pump gas variants are seeing. I also run alcohol fuel lubricant. I wish I could be more of a help with this problem but I guess all I can help with is situations where we're not seeing it so you guys can possibly narrow down what is causing it.

[JSMCPN]

Originally Posted by Mirage

So... The injector companies are near worthless on the buildup. Not too surprised I guess.

Marcus

Yea, RC Eng. gave a canned response and didn't seem interested.
FIC doesn't know what the cause is either yet, but not only did they make a new E85-compatible injector, they are willing to participate in figuring it out too, so maybe not totally worthless.